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butterfly: nekosmuse: dotthings: Read More Well said, particularly that last...

suaine:

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butterflydm:

clari-clyde:

nekosmuse:

dotthings:

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Well said, particularly that last paragraph. I’ve been VERY bothered by some of the response I’ve seen to 8x13. There has been outcry (very loud and very pervasive) from a certain contingent in fandom that not only refuses to accept the possibility…

I’m also disturbed by the open calls for “no subtext.” at all. ever. Because all subtext is only queerbaiting.

Asking writers to not use subtext is extremely limiting as that’s one way to develop characters and add microtension and someone told me last night that it’s also very limiting for actors who use and even create subtext to add layers to their characters. Asking for no subtext makes for flat characters and tensionless, didactic stories.

There is a huge difference between subtext used to add to a character details which would otherwise be edited out of the story as such details don’t progress the story and subtext used to cheaply titilate an audience — in its many forms but queerbaiting being the topic of the day. To say that all subtext is the latter erases and negates the former.

I’m also disturbed by fans saying that the writers and the actors — especially Jensen Ackles — would never go there because they would be too “averse” or “uncomfortable.” Honestly, you would hope the writers and actors of your show are so homophobic or biphobic that they would never ever create a bisexual character? Might want to think about who they are vs who you are that you want them to be as homophobic / biphobic as you.

Yeah, I’ve seen that shifting happening too and, to me, it just seems to really be clouding the issue. Subtext is an essential part of any narrative work and to say that any queer subtext that isn’t immediately acted on is ‘queerbaiting’ basically makes it impossible for there to be any subtle coming-out stories. Because any such stories are inevitably going to start out as subtext and work their way up to text.

Back when the term was first around, it seemed to be that queerbaiting meant overtly queer joking that the text immediately neutralized via either making it a ‘no homo’ moment or reminding us that the characters were meant to be 100% straight and anything else is delusional. I’m still not sure where and when that definition started getting changed to mean queer subtext instead.

I’ve noticed the latter definition of queerbaiting very very recently.  It basically says that all queer subtext MUST be eventually leading to making it canon, otherwise it’s just queerbaiting.

I actually think in some ways it’s a positive, because it seems to be originating with younger fans who do not see why gay subtext couldn’t become canon - it’s a change in the culture.  And that’s wonderful.  It’s just…  I think we need a different word.

Accusing someone of queerbaiting has also become a bludgeon used by fans against showrunners when the fans aren’t happy that the characters don’t become canonically gay despite the gay subtext.  And that’s when we go to the question of why are the showrunners/actors inserting it - is it something for slash fans that they intend to be fun/make fans happy or are they using the slash fandom for ratings/to pump up publicity but underneath there’s a malicious intent.  In both cases there’s intentional insertion of subtext without intent to make it canon, but in the former it’s intended to make fans happy while in the former it’s more patronizing/malicious.  It was easy to know which was which when the subtext was sandwiched in between obvious “no homo” moments, but these days it’s a little harder to tell because sometimes there are little things that fandom picks up on and no one else does, and it’s not always clear why TPTB are doing it.  Intent becomes unclear and thus queerbaiting becomes a common call to arms.

To get to specifics - Destiel fans have taken Carver’s comments on understanding/liking the Dean-Castiel relationship and also at a later time saying there should be more m/m kissing on TV to think he’s considering making Destiel canon.  Maybe he is, maybe he isn’t - I don’t know the details of when/how he stated these things.  What I do know is that this season there has been a lot of Destiel (and wincesty) subtext, which I as a slash fan can see despite it not being a pairing I “see”.  I don’t think, though, that either of those statements was an explicit promise of Destiel.  Nor do I think that the more blatant bi!Dean subtext that was in this last ep was intended as a promise of Dean coming out as bi any time soon/ever.  So, to me, I don’t think Carver is queerbaiting, but rather he’s throwing things out that he thinks will make fans happy while going above the head of non-subtext fans (and maybe miscalculated a bit in the last ep).  He made no promise and he’s never indicated it will definitely go beyond subtext, but given he’s said positive things about Dean&Cas’s relationship there doesn’t appear to be any malicious intent either.

Similarly, Jeff Davis over at Teen Wolf has made much more explicit statements about Stiles intentionally being written in a way so that people can interpret him as bi (albeit not explicitly canon), as well as promising to think about making sterek canon.  If neither of these things happen, it still doesn’t make it queerbaiting if he still writes in the subtext because he thinks it will make fans happy.  If he writes it in and keeps saying it could go canon because he’s afraid of losing viewers and then later reveals he never ever intended to consider bi!Stiles or Sterek, then it would be queerbaiting - but there’s no way to know that until the show is over, and to assume that is to be negative in the face of the most positive interactions with slash fandom I’ve ever seen between fans and the showrunner/actors/network.

OTOH, there’s a show I won’t name so as not to offend its fans where the exec producer intentionally inserts subtext and tweets pics of tender moments between the characters of the main slash couple - but throughout the show very clearly inserts “no homo” moments to make clear it’s all very het, just “bromantic”.  In fact, the more tender the moment, the more obvious the surrounding “no homo”.  That’s pretty much classic queerbaiting, because he’s giving slash fans a crumb and thinking they’ll thank him, while he hands the whole cake over to the mainstream het audience.

Queerbaiting is such a loaded term that I think it shouldn’t be used lightly, yet the way fandom is evolving is making anything less than going canon a form of queerbaiting to some.  Showrunners are behind the times on this evolution though, and right now I personally won’t hold subtext without canon intent against them when it is done in a way that seems respectful of the slash fandom.

Mostly riffing on the last post in this chain.

I’ve been in fandoms where queerbaiting was the name of the game and it was awful. The Teen Wolf crew is never going to be that, never.

But I also feel the visceral need for more than subtext and sometimes I do wish they’d just put up or shut up, you know? Ambiguity is great, but we’ve had positive ambiguity for years - Due South, for example, was very much one of those shows that never quite committed to the queer text, but gave us everything else we could ask for, including running off into the sunrise together.

I think we now have a generation of fans who don’t understand why queerness is something that needs to stay subtext. I think they’re often a bit impatient, yes, a bit quick on the draw, but their dislike for being played with makes me gleeful. I’d rather have them than the old guard any day, even when they make me face palm.

I think one of the biggest reasons that people are now demanding canon rather than just positive subtext is that back then the justification for not “going there” was more than anything “we’d love to but we can’t” and that’s not really a working excuse anymore because audiences have changed enough that queer romance is a profitable market.

In any case, Teen Wolf is not the production to call out when it comes to queer-baiting, pretty much ever. They’d never throw a “no homo” at us, ever. I’m not sure of much, but I’m sure of that.

Just to add to the above, I know Starz isn’t exactly a massive network but the overwhelmingly positive reaction to the Nasir/Agron relationship (and the hot-ass sex scene in the most recent ep) in Spartacus has got to be a bit interesting for other showrunners.  If it wasn’t for Nagron, I wouldn’t know a thing about Spartacus.  Because of that pairing, I know two actors’ names and two characters’ names in a show I’ve never watched.  Plus, because of Nagron, I plan to buy the box sets as soon as I can afford them.  I can’t be the only person thinking this way.

So who knows?  Maybe Nagron will be inspirational to other shows.

(via trilobit)